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1: Holocaust denial is not necessarily antisemitic.

Response: One item that has been raised here several times is the contention that Holocaust denial is not inherently antisemitic, and/or that Wikipedia should not conclude that everyone who is a Holocaust denier harbors antisemitic feelings.

Wikipedia is not here to conclude that, and its editors' opinion on the matter - whatever those opinions are and regardless of who they belong to - are irrelevant. Wikipedia is here to present what reliable sources say. In this case, there is a preponderance of reliable material stating that Holocaust denial is antisemitic, and therefore the article notes that Holocaust denial is considered to be antisemitic, and why the antisemitism template is legitimately included.

Related archived discussion: [1], [2].

2: The antisemitism template should be removed.

Response: Please see the response to Item 1 as to why the antisemitism template is legitimately placed.

3: Holocaust denial should be renamed Holocaust revisionism

Response: No. Per numerous reliable sources, the correct terminology is Holocaust denial/denier.

Related archived discussion: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8].

4: Not all historians reject Holocaust denial.

Response: Yes, they do. As is already stated in the article, according to the oldest and largest American association of historians and history teachers, "no serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place", and that Holocaust denial is a form of "academic fraud". Wikipedia must avoid using vague or unspecific terms, and words which do not accuractely reflect what reliable sources say.

Related archived discussion: [9], [10].

5: The 4 million Auschwitz plaque

Response: One issue relates to the death toll plaque at Auschwitz, which was amended following the collapse of the Soviet Union to read 1.5 million Jewish deaths, instead of 4 million victims of no specified ethnicity or background.

The Soviet authorities estimated the death toll not via historical methodology, but by working out how many people could have been cremated during the entire existence of the camp, taking 20% off to account for crematoria down-time, and using that number: around 4 million. They did not, for example, examine how many people were sent to the camp versus how many did not return, but used the 4 million variant to purposely overstate non-Jewish deaths, and diminish the fact that 90% of those that disappeared following their deportation to Auschwitz were Jewish. Once the Iron Curtain fell, communist pressure to keep the original Soviet estimate ceased and the more accurate estimate replaced it.

In any event, reputable historians did not use the 4 million figure in their calculations of the overall number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Rather, they used numbers of 1 to 1.5 million, figures which are still used today.

Related archived discussion/items: [11], [12], [13] and the appropriate section in the Auschwitz article.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Holocaust denial. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Holocaust denial at the Reference desk.

Holocaust denial was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 6, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
October 11, 2004	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
December 27, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
July 5, 2007	Good article reassessment	Kept
July 15, 2008	Good article reassessment	Kept
June 6, 2020	Good article reassessment	Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

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My suggestion is to add an additional section for the middle east category to include Israel. In 2015, Benjamin Net. voiced his opinion that Palestinian leaders persuaded the Nazis to commence the holocaust. This denial denigrates the Nazi decision to carry out the mass killing and is a way to condemn Palestinians today.

From BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34594563

From AP news https://apnews.com/general-news-61ead35a427a408e9d93d43f41cfa064 71.229.52.174 (talk) 18:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources are good, though it can be argued to be not exactly "denial". A sentence like "Historians said that Israeli PM BN served the interests of HD-ers when he claimed in 2015 that..." is not unreasonable IMO. I note that this thing is well covered in Benjamin Netanyahu. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As in mentioned in the intro as part of holocaust denialism, "Nazi Germany's "Final Solution" was aimed only at deporting Jews from the territory of the Third Reich and did not include their extermination.", Which even without an explicit comment from a historian or commentator from the articles stating that is in explicit service fellow HD-ers, it matches the definition as provided in the intro. Thank you for taking the time to review this proposal. 71.229.52.174 (talk) 20:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Point, per the WP-article's definition, this does seem like a version of HD. I've WP:APPNOTEd in a couple of places, we'll see if other editors can be arsed to have an opinion. For the interested, the coverage in the BN-article is at Benjamin_Netanyahu#Fourth_term. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, there is Under-fire Netanyahu criticised over 'a form of Holocaust denial', Irish Independent, 2015, [14], [15], etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to suggest adding the following under the middle east section.

=== Israel ===

Israel's Prim Minister, Mr Netanyahu, at a speech to the World Zionist Congress in 2015, insisted Adolf Hitler did not want to exterminate jews but had only wanted to expel them from Europe due too the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini request. This has been seen as a means to reduce Hitler's responsibility for the Holocaust by Angela Merkel and chief Israel Holocaust Historian, Yad Vashem. 71.229.52.174 (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you include the exact quotes from the sources? (Like what the article said exactly in regards to this)? Wikieditor662 (talk) 07:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Wikieditor662, the exact quote from the AP Article goes like, Mr. Netanyahu said “Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews, and Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, ‘If you expel them, they’ll all come here.’ ‘So what should I do with them?’ he asked. He said, ‘Burn them.’” The quote is a bit long and can be found in the attached article, but it could provide greater context? 71.229.52.174 (talk) 14:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I have the sources for the first part, but I couldn't find any that stated that Merkel or Yad Vashem accused Netanyahu of being a holocaust denier. Could you point me towards that? Wikieditor662 (talk) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For Merkel, I could find only where she denounced Netanyahu Statements and Yad Vashem in the BBC article, Netanyahu Holocaust remarks: Israeli PM criticised, stated that what he said was factually incorrect. The opposition leader, Isaac Herzog, mentioned that the statements "play into the hands of holocaust deniers" and the MP Itzik Shmuli made a similar statement Anger at Netanyahu claim Palestinian grand mufti inspired Holocaust. Though not explicitly a hardcore holocaust denier, the statement Netanyahu made did reduce the role of Hitler's decision and Germany's responsibility, per leaders and scholars views. 71.229.52.174 (talk) 16:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If it's not explicitly about holocaust denialism, then why should it be in the Holocaust denial article? Wikieditor662 (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The reason it should be in the article is because it was the statements of a head of state that was reducing the role of the Nazi initiative to commit the holocaust and suggest they only wanted to "deport" the jews (refer to the first point of denial in the article) and his words have been described as playing into the hands of holocaust deniers. 71.229.52.174 (talk) 14:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In order to support article inclusion, you need to focus on the "his words have been described as playing into the hands of holocaust deniers" part of it. You need more than just "he said this" because that in and of itself is not necessarily denialism. You need sources to show that it is actually used by deniers and how it is used that way. I wouldn't give support to including this without stronger connections of it actually being used (more than just "it could play into their hands"). ButlerBlog (talk) 14:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Upon further research into this point, Scholars Slam Netanyahu prominent Jewish historian Moshe Zimmermann, said "Any attempt to deflect the burden from Hitler to others is a form of Holocaust denial," he told The Associated Press. "It cheapens the Holocaust." Also From Outrage over Holocaust comments Moshe Zimmerman, accused Netanyahu, in his “desire to slander the Palestinians”, of having managed “to relatively whitewash Nazi Germany” while providing fuel for the far right and Holocaust deniers."

There is a prominent scholar calling his statements a form of denial and the scholar, not a political opponent is stating that it helps holocaust deniers. As always, thank you for taking the time to review! 71.229.52.174 (talk) 15:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Done Thank you! Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Wikieditor662 Your addition looks ok to me. There may be more high-quality sources covering this, like books/scholarly articles. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Wikieditor662 (talk) 23:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Wikieditor662 Looks well written and sourced! The last comment I have then I will most likely shut up, should one sentence be included at the end denoting where Netanyahu later attempted to clarify his statement? From [Outrage over Holocaust comments] "I had no intention of absolving Hitler of his diabolical responsibility for exterminating European Jews ... at the same time, it is absurd to ignore the role the mufti played"

Something along the lines of, "Netanyahu later told reporters that he was not letting Hitler off the hook for the Holocaust and that the Mufti's role should not be ignored." 71.229.52.174 (talk) 14:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Done Wikieditor662 (talk) 23:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Section on Germany

In the German section, the terminology of "Volksverhetzung" is explained and translated twice in mostly the same way. I think it should be possible to remove one of those (preferrably the second one) to make for more fluent reading. --131Platypi (talk) 13:11, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, thanks. JimRenge (talk) 14:48, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"So-called"

The article says "so-called" Allied atrocities when referring to ways holocaust deniers try to minimize the holocaust with a false comparison. However, using "so-called" about something that historically happened doesn't make sense; it would be more fitting to use "so-called" for the false equivalency. For example, if they tried to minimize the holocaust by comparing it to the slavery in the US, you wouldn't say the "so-called slavery", you would say "so-called" about the comparison. Does that make sense? Are there any objections to removing so-called from that part? Wikieditor662 (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What phrasing do the cited sources use? Llll5032 (talk) 00:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

By removing "so-called", it would look like it there was allies were the ones committing atrocities (similar to concentration camps?). Seems like the issue is "allied atrocities". Ramos1990 (talk) 01:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Llll5032 I don't have access to that specific source, but on the Allied atrocities page you can see it's definitely not speculative that they committed the atrocities.

@Ramos1990 the allies did commit atrocities, but nowhere on the page is it said that it's similar to the concentration camps. If the holocaust deniers said it's similar to concentration camps, then adding "so-called" there would make sense. However, saying "so-called" to an event that actually happened doesn't look right to me. Wikieditor662 (talk) 01:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is best resolved by citing and summarizing how the academic sources on Holocaust denial phrase the issue, per WP:STICKTOTHESOURCE and WP:BESTSOURCES: "When writing about a topic, basing content on the best respected and most authoritative reliable sources helps to prevent bias, undue weight, and other NPOV disagreements." Llll5032 (talk) 13:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The source says "The leading Holocaust denial institute is the German-Austrian Institute for Contemporary History. Its role is similar to the American Institute for Historical Review and there is interaction between them. Most of its scholarship is devoted to proving that the Holocaust was a hoax concocted by Jews to win financial support from Germany. Another Holocaust institute is the Research Institute for Contemporary History (Zeitgeschichtliche Forschungsstelle). Alfred Schickel founded this institute in 1981. He has remained head of this institute that is headquartered in Ingolstadt, Germany. Schickel has been careful to avoid German legal restriction against attacking the Holocaust, so he has concentrated on so-called Allied atrocities against the Germans during and after the war. He has also frequently written in the extreme right journal Young Freedom (lunge Freiheit). Schickel has cautiously incorporated the Auschwitz lie thesis in his writings." (Atkins, Holocaust denial as an international movement, 2009, pg. 105) Ramos1990 (talk) 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Ramos1990 @Llll5032 So looks like they do use "so-called" in this source. However, this does seem to conflate with the numerous other sources which state that the allied atrocities definitely happened. Wikieditor662 (talk) 23:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Do any of the other sources cited in the paragraph use a different phrase? Llll5032 (talk) 22:08, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Wikieditor662 I don't think what's at issue is whether such events actually happened, but whether or not they should be called "atrocities". That is the origin of the phrasing "so-called" in this context. The source is staying ambivalent as to whether or not such events are indeed "atrocities" or just mere "horrible things". — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 21:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not the Allies committed atrocities, holocaust deniers paint actual or imagined events as atrocities, when there is no clear consensus for their position. For example, they call the bombing of cities in Germany and Japan atrocities, although there is no expert consensus for that. Or they claimed Allied Nations carried out attempted genocides against Germans and Ukrainians. TFD (talk) 22:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the article doesn't use "so-called" to a specific desputed event, it uses it on ally atrocities in general. @Llll5032 Not in the paragraph, but in the Allied war crimes during World War II page you can find many, many sources for undisputed atrocities committed by them. Stating that it's disputed whether the allied committed atrocities is definitely WP:Fringe. Non fringe scholars and journals can probably still hold fringe views. Wikieditor662 (talk) 01:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The source says ”on so-called Allied atrocities against the Germans during and after the war.” So it is pretty much focused on perceived atrocities against Germans, not perceived injustice by the allies broadly. Ramos1990 (talk) 15:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Holocaust deniers don't write about proven atrocities, because they pale in comparison with Nazi ones. For example, the Razing of Friesoythe (which is mentioned in the linked article on Allied War Crimes) was carried out by Canadian soldiers in retaliation for the murder of their commanding officer. They burned down civilian homes after making sure that there were no people in them. On a scale of one to ten, this was on a much lower level than major Nazi atrocities, it was directed by lower level soldiers without sanction from the Allied Command, and was fairly unusual.

Holocaust deniers concentrate on atrocities they consider comparable. And before you say this is OR on my part, you need to show that the sources are wrong before we can question their conclusions. I am merely explaining how it can both be true that Allied soldiers committed atrocities AND holocaust deniers write about "so-called" atrocities. TFD (talk) 16:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly. But the quote does provide a specific context - against Germans during and after the war. I think that the context in the quote is more precise for the article. It avoids OR and sticks to the source. Ramos1990 (talk) 20:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It says, "he has concentrated on so-called Allied atrocities against the Germans during and after the war." The issue was whether we could use the term "so-called," since there were actually atrocities carried out by Allied soldiers. But clearly the Holocaust deniers are not talking about these proven atrocities buy about questionable or non-existent ones. Their motivation is to show an equivalence in order to trivialize the Holocaust. TFD (talk) 21:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would think that what Llll5032 proposed makes sense. We can just quote the source so the weight falls on how the source mentioned it. It seems clear to me. Ramos1990 (talk) 21:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, using a quote instead a paraphrase would handily resolve this discrepancy. — Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 22:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I get it now, they were referring to certain allied atrocities so-called, instead of calling the atrocities that in general. That makes sense, but it's confusing. Is there any way we could clear this up, so that the readers will know they're questioning certain potential allied atrocities instead of allied atrocities in general? Wikieditor662 (talk) 23:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you understood the nuance in the book. I will just quote it and hopefully it eliminates any ambiguities. The is no need to paraphrase in this situation. Let the source speak for itself. Ramos1990 (talk) 00:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, individual sources are not perfect, and while directly quoting would definitely be better than what we're doing now, couldn't it still be confusing for the readers? Wikieditor662 (talk) 04:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is pretty clear to me what the author is saying. For anyone who is confused, they can seek the source itself. I already quoted extensively here too so the context should be visible to anyone. Clarity falls on the source, not our interpretations of what the source says in this case. We cannot agree on how to paraphrase this apparently, so this is probably the best middle ground option. This avoids OR and SYN. The source speaks for itself. Ramos1990 (talk) 08:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]