Talk:Grammar school

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Grammar schools in the United Kingdom was copied or moved into Grammar school with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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US usage

User:JHB has twice removed the note on US usage of the term, commenting on my talk page:

In an article that is wholly concerned with an historic type of advanced school found in the British and British devolved educational systems, a note concerning a description, already much in decline, of an elementary type of school in the USA is of interest to nobody. It is that type of amateurism that contributes to Wikipedia's reputation for poor quality. JHB

Opinions? Kanguole (talk) 09:37, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps this does not belong in the first paragraph of the lead. I intend to restore the sentence on current US usage at the end of the US section, and place a hatnote Kanguole (talk) 09:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

National Grammar Schools Association

I have proposed that the article National Grammar Schools Association is merged into this one, as it is a very brief article and can easily be incorporated here, ~ Scribble Monkey (talk) 22:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds reasonable. Kanguole 22:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Manchester Grammar School

Is it reasonable to claim that Manchester Grammar School is "the most famous direct grant grammar school" because an author made the subjective assertion almost 40 years ago? - Scribble Monkey (talk) 16:31, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The direct grant grammar schools ceased to exist (as DG schools) almost 40 years ago. As well as having prominent heads, Manchester Grammar School was the largest, and had the highest success rate at Oxbridge and other prominent universities. Nor is this author the only one. Any discussion of direct grant grammars will invariably mention the school as an example, usually the only example. It was the flagship. Kanguole 16:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. - Scribble Monkey (talk) 16:55, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nomenclature c. 1905–65

It would be useful to point out that most of the "more than 1,200 maintained grammar schools, which were fully state-funded" were, strictly speaking, called county secondary schools and that it was unusual for the term grammar school to appear in the names of such schools.

Some mention of voluntary aided and voluntary controlled grammar schools would also be useful. They were often considered rather 'classier' than county secondary schools. Norvo (talk) 03:54, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That paragraph refers to the situation after the 1944 Education Act, which created the category of maintained grammar school, some of which were newly built, some county secondary schools and some former voluntary schools brought into the maintained system as VC or VA schools under the Act. In that period, county grammar schools typically had "Grammar" in their names, though that's less significant than their designation by the state. Kanguole 09:18, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification. Norvo (talk) 00:20, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oman and Turkey

The schools listed under these countries may be similar to grammar schools or gymnasiums or lyceums, or inspired by them, but it doesn't seem that they actually are grammar schools in a meaningful sense. Kanguole 12:10, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think they (at least) have been founded with the same philosophy, but it may be argued that they deserve a separate category in the school section. However, interestingly British English was the dominant language at these schools, and they do not resemble lyceums (Lise after French style general schools) at all, first because of the medium of instruction language and secondly Anatolian schools had 8 periods (hours of instruction) in a given weekday whereas lyceums had only 5. It is open to discussion, will not insist too much on my point.--74.192.202.208 (talk) 15:53, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's different from actually being grammar schools, though. I'd agree they deserve a different category; I think the material about the Turkish schools belongs in the Anatolian High School article. Kanguole 18:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Types of Grammar School

The current article text tells me that post-1944 there were only two types of grammar school: fully state-funded and direct-grant. But over on the article 'Voluntary aided school' the text there seems to say that there was a third type, voluntary aided grammar school. Both articles can't be right. Llezsoeg (talk) 12:27, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There were three types of maintained school (including maintained grammar schools) in that period: voluntary aided schools, voluntary controlled schools and county schools. The running costs of all these were fully met by the state, but the foundations of VA schools were required to contribute to the cost of new building. Kanguole 17:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. So if I understand you correctly there were the following types of grammar school: 1, direct-grant; 2, voluntary aided; 3, voluntary controlled; 4, county (though I'm not too clear about this one as a separate category). Is that right? Llezsoeg (talk) 18:21, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More 1, direct-grant; 2, maintained, including 2a, voluntary aided, 2b, voluntary controlled and 2c, county. The top-level 2-way distinction is common through all the sources I've seen. Not that the direct-grant grammars were all the same either; they could also be subdivided. Kanguole 18:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, now here is the problem I have. The school I went to in 1958: a, was run by a religious order; b, charged fees which for those who had passed the 11-plus were partly met on a means-tested basis by the local authority; c, was not direct-grant (it became so in 1963). Such a school in 1958 was normally regarded as a grammar school but it seems not to fit into any of the above categories.Llezsoeg (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Donnison Report refers to such schools as independent day schools with places funded by LEAs, and acknowledges that they filled much the same role as direct grant schools, though they weren't officially classified as direct grant grammars. Kanguole 09:17, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. If you want to count such schools as grammar schools I think you need to revise the breakdown of types of grammar achool. If you don't want to count them as grammar schools then I'd say that the text defining 'grammar school' needs some work. Hertel47 (talk) 06:28, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Grouping different kinds of school in a history section

I have reverted the re-arrangement into a History section, because it would give the misleading impression of tracing the same schools and the same kind of school through history. There was so much change over this long period that these are actually different kinds of school, with different memberships, though there are overlaps. Kanguole 02:41, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

I propose that Gymnasium (school) be merged into Grammar school. Because this article covers a diversity of systems similar to grammar schools in the UK as well as other types of school, its content should be merged into Grammar school article. Sarcelles (talk) 17:52, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They're related topics, but I don't think that a merger would be helpful. At present this article has a fairly clear focus, but its scope would have to be broadened considerably to accommodate the content of Gymnasium (school). Kanguole 00:15, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. While grammar schools and gymnasiums share the qualities of being university-preparatory schools and historically had classics-based curricula, the specifics of how gymnasiums are structured and operate today varies widely between countries, thereby warranting its own article where these specifics are best addressed. Merging Gymnasium (school) with this one, which broadly follows the UK education tradition, would unnecessarily complicate the article. Duffit5 (talk) 02:03, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Parking a reference

A useful article on the effectiveness of Grammar schools- https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/mar/23/selective-schools-make-no-difference-to-gcse-results-study-says.--ClemRutter (talk) 15:35, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A post lock down article. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/mar/06/if-we-want-poor-children-to-catch-up-england-must-look-again-at-grammar-schools--ClemRutter (talk) 18:40, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ages?

What ages study at current day English (British) grammar school?

Is this equivalent to high schools in the US? 9th to 12 grade, graduating at age 18? פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 23:25, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ages 11 to 18 (corresponding to Years 7 to 13 in the nomenclature used in England and Wales) -- Picapica (talk) 22:53, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

On this topic, why is the Wikipedia redirect at the top of the page likening grammar schools to "elementary schools"? I'm sure those are primary schools! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.64.114.218 (talk) 21:05, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's an old US usage – see the second paragraph of the United State section. Kanguole 21:19, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The lead/lede

If we start with the first sentence it is factually wrong and is an example of appalling grammar. Do we leave it or attempt to address all the issues. It all goes back to the misapprehension that a grammar school is a type of school- when that was only part of the story. This is not an article solely about selection- Even so, not mentioning Weald of Kent Grammar School Sevenoaks annex, or multi-academy trusts shows the article needs to be edited, and a few of the tenses changed. Maybe we should start with, Grammar school either refers to a school of ancient origin, or to a state maintained school that selected by ability in England in the twentieth century. These usages were replicated in the Britisn Commonwealth, and within British oversea communities. Discussion and consensus is required. --ClemRutter (talk) 00:19, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed opening sentence suggests that the article covers two topics, and since per WP:NOTDICT we should have articles about topics rather than terms, that the article should be split into two articles covering those two topics. Kanguole 08:48, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wise advice. I really don't want to take the lead on this one, having been too involved all my professional life. I have plenty of ideas but would like further advice from the community. If it is going to be split into two articles- which one one retains the 'Grammar school' title- 'Grammar school (traditional school)' or 'Grammar school (selective school)'? .--ClemRutter (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]